1 00:00:00,740 --> 00:00:03,120 [Music] 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:04,720 I want to welcome our audience to this 3 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:07,040 learn podcast. It is in these podcasts 4 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:08,720 that learn wants you to meet experts 5 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:10,320 that can help you in your work as school 6 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:12,240 leaders or perhaps partners in the 7 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:14,639 education landscape. The topic for this 8 00:00:14,639 --> 00:00:16,080 podcast is tailored learning 9 00:00:16,080 --> 00:00:18,240 experiences. And our guest is Shannon 10 00:00:18,240 --> 00:00:20,160 Burke, founder and CEO of Engaged 11 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:22,560 toLearn. On the learn website, you will 12 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:24,880 find on the research page under the COE 13 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:26,720 of innovation and the element of 14 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:29,039 tailored learning experiences, research 15 00:00:29,039 --> 00:00:31,359 in this area being discussed along with 16 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:33,840 potential resources to access. Shannon, 17 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:35,440 I want to welcome you again to the learn 18 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:37,680 podcast. It's good to have you here to 19 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:40,000 speak to us about this important topic. 20 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:41,440 I know you have an extensive research 21 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:42,800 and work background in the area of 22 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:44,719 tailored learning experiences, have been 23 00:00:44,719 --> 00:00:46,559 recognized by many for your expertise, 24 00:00:46,559 --> 00:00:48,800 including the organization Women We 25 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:50,960 Admire, who recognized you as a top 50 26 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,079 CEO in 2022, and you are also recognized 27 00:00:54,079 --> 00:00:56,320 with the 2022 Enterprising Women of the 28 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,320 Year award. Would you please share with 29 00:00:58,320 --> 00:00:59,840 the audience some of that background 30 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:01,199 experience that has resulted in that 31 00:01:01,199 --> 00:01:02,640 award, especially around tailored 32 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:05,040 learning experiences? Thank you, Dave. 33 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:07,680 Thanks for having me. And this is my 34 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:09,920 favorite topic. 35 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,400 Because as much as I love adult learning 36 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:13,840 and everything that goes around, you 37 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:15,360 know, along with professional learning 38 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,560 experiences, the reason to revamp 39 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:20,080 professional learning is really to get 40 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:22,880 to the heart of the student learning 41 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:24,799 experience. And this is why I went into 42 00:01:24,799 --> 00:01:27,840 education. I became a teacher because um 43 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,080 my sister and I who are 15 months apart 44 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,520 in age um I loved school. School worked 45 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:35,040 for me perfectly. I graduated 46 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:36,799 validictorian. She was a high school 47 00:01:36,799 --> 00:01:38,960 dropout. we're only two IQ points apart. 48 00:01:38,960 --> 00:01:40,880 So, it had nothing to do with IQ. It was 49 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,520 literally that we needed different 50 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:45,600 learning experiences in school to 51 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,640 thrive. And so, that that really 52 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:50,560 prompted me knowing, you know, the 53 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:52,479 creativity she has, the curious mind, 54 00:01:52,479 --> 00:01:54,000 the brilliance she could, you know, 55 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:55,840 bring to the world if her gifts had been 56 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:57,920 utilized, the uniqueness of her had been 57 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,399 utilized in school. Um, and knowing that 58 00:02:00,399 --> 00:02:02,560 there had to be many, many more people 59 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:04,000 like that out there, that's what 60 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,880 prompted me to become a teacher. And so, 61 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:08,640 um, that background and experience and 62 00:02:08,640 --> 00:02:10,560 passion for this topic, um, has really 63 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:14,080 driven my 32-year career in education. 64 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:15,760 And so, I'm excited to talk about it 65 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:18,080 today. And I think that, you know, the 66 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:20,959 value of learn specifically is that 67 00:02:20,959 --> 00:02:23,040 there are so many trends in education 68 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,360 that have tried to get at this. The 69 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:27,120 value of learn is that it's based on 70 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,280 what is the real research out there, 71 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,680 right? and what is actionable out of 72 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:33,440 that research that can be applied in 73 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:34,959 different districts and you know 74 00:02:34,959 --> 00:02:37,519 classrooms. And so I I think that's 75 00:02:37,519 --> 00:02:39,519 that's an important differentiator in 76 00:02:39,519 --> 00:02:42,239 this particular topic because 77 00:02:42,239 --> 00:02:45,040 it feels like to me again in in being in 78 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,760 education for 32 years that we've that 79 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,800 we have tried to address this in a lot 80 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:52,800 of different ways over the years. um 81 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:54,560 because of the the foundation of 82 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,440 education, it uh public education in 83 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,200 this country wasn't was built to be 84 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:01,760 mass-produced and it wasn't really built 85 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:04,480 to tailor to individual students. And so 86 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:06,400 for the 32 years I've been in education 87 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:08,640 anyway, we've been trying to figure this 88 00:03:08,640 --> 00:03:10,239 out. You know, we've been trying to 89 00:03:10,239 --> 00:03:13,680 address it because we know um that that 90 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,159 every learner needs uh kind of a 91 00:03:16,159 --> 00:03:17,680 customized 92 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:19,120 learning experience based on their 93 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:21,360 unique needs. And and Shannon, boy, you 94 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:22,480 couldn't have said that any better. And 95 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:23,840 it's interesting you talked about your 96 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:25,280 experience and your sister's experience 97 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:27,440 of school and how really schools have 98 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:29,120 been tailored to individuals like 99 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:30,879 yourself and and to a large degree even 100 00:03:30,879 --> 00:03:33,599 like myself and and we we've done that 101 00:03:33,599 --> 00:03:35,840 for a reason obviously in the past, but 102 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:37,599 the economics and the realities have 103 00:03:37,599 --> 00:03:38,879 changed and the opportunities have 104 00:03:38,879 --> 00:03:41,040 changed frankly with technology and and 105 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,680 and such. And so, you know, I'm excited 106 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:45,760 to hear that you are looking down this 107 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:47,440 path very seriously working with the 108 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:49,519 clients you work with. And I know you 109 00:03:49,519 --> 00:03:51,599 spent a lot of time really researching 110 00:03:51,599 --> 00:03:53,120 this, but not just researching it, 111 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:54,720 putting it into practice and seeing how 112 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,200 it works. And so, you know, could you 113 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,360 right now just kind of talk to us a 114 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,360 little bit about the research and the 115 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:03,680 work experiences you've had around this 116 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:05,760 um uh tailored learning experiences and 117 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,879 how to help districts get to this space. 118 00:04:08,879 --> 00:04:11,599 Absolutely. So, one thing that's 119 00:04:11,599 --> 00:04:13,200 interesting is in my very first year of 120 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:15,599 teaching when I was 22, I was teaching 121 00:04:15,599 --> 00:04:18,560 uh seniors who had not graduated yet, 122 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:20,239 but they had failed the exit exam four 123 00:04:20,239 --> 00:04:22,800 or more times. And I used a method 124 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:24,560 called learning styles. I don't know if 125 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:26,479 you remember learning styles, but in the 126 00:04:26,479 --> 00:04:27,919 60s there was some research around 127 00:04:27,919 --> 00:04:30,240 learning styles that um Reed and Kenneth 128 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,680 Dunn had done out of St. John's and it 129 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:36,080 uh the researches now some of that has 130 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,800 been debunked um but it was about 21 131 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,199 different elements that essentially said 132 00:04:41,199 --> 00:04:44,320 it was it was it was landmark because it 133 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:45,600 was the first time that someone had kind 134 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:47,040 of quantified these might be the 135 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,120 different ways or different aspects of 136 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:51,440 the physical learning environment um and 137 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:52,960 the sensory learning environment that 138 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:54,479 you might need to adjust for different 139 00:04:54,479 --> 00:04:56,479 learners. And so that was just 140 00:04:56,479 --> 00:04:59,759 conceptually was really uh pretty pretty 141 00:04:59,759 --> 00:05:01,680 groundbreaking at that time to say well 142 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,560 not everyone should sit in a desk in a 143 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:06,160 row and listen to a lecture. maybe 144 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:07,600 there's some other ways to do this, 145 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,080 right? And so I think that was really 146 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:12,160 important. And then I'm sure I mean the 147 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:13,600 audience is familiar with the work 148 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:15,120 research out of Harvard with project 149 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:16,880 zero that was all around multiple 150 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:18,880 intelligences and you know that and that 151 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:21,440 work and then kind of from that point it 152 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:23,759 it began to explode and there have been 153 00:05:23,759 --> 00:05:26,240 many trends in education around you know 154 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:27,919 problem based learning project based 155 00:05:27,919 --> 00:05:29,840 learning uh when employers started 156 00:05:29,840 --> 00:05:31,440 getting involved and saying we need this 157 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,080 different kind of skill set and so that 158 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:35,680 impact on education and there have been 159 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:37,280 trans you know challenge based learning 160 00:05:37,280 --> 00:05:38,880 brainbased learning and there's all you 161 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,120 know you could go on to name uh all of 162 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:43,680 the different trends. And I think what's 163 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:47,199 really important is to is to say we now 164 00:05:47,199 --> 00:05:48,880 have the research. What's really 165 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:50,800 exciting is when we built public 166 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:53,600 education in this country, um you know, 167 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:55,280 decades and decades ago, we didn't have 168 00:05:55,280 --> 00:05:56,560 the research that we have on the brain. 169 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:58,000 Now we now we have brain imaging 170 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,960 technology. We have true um in-depth 171 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,600 research on how the brain works and how 172 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:07,759 um interests, passions, and aptitudes 173 00:06:07,759 --> 00:06:09,600 actually influence motivation. and 174 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:11,440 therefore actually influence learning to 175 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,639 a great degree. And so if if our endgame 176 00:06:14,639 --> 00:06:17,600 is to you know ensure that students are 177 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:19,840 you know able to have agency over their 178 00:06:19,840 --> 00:06:21,600 own life and their own learning and and 179 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:23,120 their ability to contribute to the world 180 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:24,319 and all the things that we say about 181 00:06:24,319 --> 00:06:26,800 what we want from education then we we 182 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:28,000 need to pay attention to that research 183 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:29,280 to be able to tailor those learning 184 00:06:29,280 --> 00:06:30,880 experiences. So I think all those 185 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,120 attempts all those you know based 186 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,000 attempts have been basically trying to 187 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,880 move from instructional models to 188 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:40,880 learning models to you know move from 189 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,080 the one sizefits-all to the uh ability 190 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:46,000 to as you said differentiation is 191 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:48,240 another one to differentiate or tailor 192 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:51,440 to each individual student and that 193 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:52,960 seems like a heavy lift unless you have 194 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:54,880 a system and the tools to do it right 195 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,720 like a teacher can't use like IEPs for 196 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,440 every kid you and 35 students in a you 197 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:03,599 know in a class or 140 students in a 198 00:07:03,599 --> 00:07:06,319 day. That's that's unreasonable. But 199 00:07:06,319 --> 00:07:09,199 there are tools today that can um 200 00:07:09,199 --> 00:07:11,440 facilitate this process and teachers can 201 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,400 use um to make it work and to scale it 202 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:16,560 and and for it to be feasible in the 203 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:18,880 system. And so it's it's really an 204 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:20,080 exciting time because of the research 205 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:21,440 and the tools that are available to 206 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,160 truly make this actually a reality. It 207 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:25,440 strikes me as you're talking about that 208 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:27,840 Shannon that it's really important to 209 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:29,680 understand those elements of the child 210 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:31,680 right before you even talk about how 211 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:33,120 they have a different experience. You've 212 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:34,400 got to actually understand the child 213 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:35,919 better. And that's been the complication 214 00:07:35,919 --> 00:07:38,560 at least when I was a a teacher and I'd 215 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,199 have 160 kids in a day. It was hard to 216 00:07:41,199 --> 00:07:44,160 understand every child um and much less 217 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,000 a handful of children that I that I had 218 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,240 in my classroom. Right. So that's one of 219 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:49,599 the things. And the other you pointed 220 00:07:49,599 --> 00:07:51,840 out is we actually probably have to 221 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,240 place more onus on the child in terms of 222 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:55,520 controlling that experience because a 223 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:56,800 teacher can't differentiate for that 224 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:58,240 many students at one time. You can't 225 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,720 create IEPs in that way. It's not it's 226 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:02,080 not doable and that's that's really 227 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:04,080 important for the listening audience to 228 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:05,919 to hear from you. Do you want to expand 229 00:08:05,919 --> 00:08:08,879 on that a little bit more or Sure. So uh 230 00:08:08,879 --> 00:08:10,720 so yeah to address both the things you 231 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,280 said. So I think that the tool set 232 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,400 involves a set of competencies for the 233 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:18,400 educator because as you mentioned we 234 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:19,919 were both secondary so we both had you 235 00:08:19,919 --> 00:08:21,120 know similar like you know you go 236 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,240 through that day of 150 160 kids you 237 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:25,360 know to be able to do that 238 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:26,800 differentiation you have to have some 239 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:28,720 tools that feed that well fortunately 240 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:32,080 the technology is available today to so 241 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,080 IO is an example there's other examples 242 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:36,560 out there of of tools that will allow 243 00:08:36,560 --> 00:08:39,440 you to do what we used to do manually as 244 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,599 an interest inventory or you know some 245 00:08:41,599 --> 00:08:44,399 type of um aptitude tests, you know, all 246 00:08:44,399 --> 00:08:46,160 of those kind of assessments and surveys 247 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:47,600 that have been out there. But like you 248 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:49,200 said, the first the first thing is you 249 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:51,440 have to gather information essentially 250 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,000 about each individual student. But then 251 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:55,360 what do you do with all of that, right? 252 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:56,959 You can't then design individual 253 00:08:56,959 --> 00:08:59,200 lessons. And so then that next step is 254 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:00,800 what are the tools that we can utilize 255 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:02,720 as educators to design learning 256 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:04,480 experiences that can truly be 257 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:06,399 individualized for each child. And then 258 00:09:06,399 --> 00:09:08,320 what are the tools and there is a tool 259 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:09,519 set for each of these and we'll have 260 00:09:09,519 --> 00:09:11,440 those on the website. Um what are the 261 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:13,040 tools then that can allow the 262 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,360 facilitation of that. So once you get 263 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,440 into the facilitation of it, it's two 264 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:19,440 parts, right? You have both the 265 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:21,839 protocols and the tools for the educator 266 00:09:21,839 --> 00:09:23,360 and you have the protocols and the tools 267 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:25,440 for the learner because as you mentioned 268 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,240 not only is it um does it make it 269 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:30,160 scalable for the learner to take agency 270 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:32,800 and ownership over the experience but 271 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,200 the research actually shows that then if 272 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:37,519 they're setting their own goals etc. you 273 00:09:37,519 --> 00:09:39,279 know even according to Hadtie's research 274 00:09:39,279 --> 00:09:41,760 you know that could be the number one 275 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:43,920 influence on students actually achieving 276 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:45,519 is setting their own goals and owning 277 00:09:45,519 --> 00:09:47,760 their own learning. But in the past 278 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:49,200 there haven't been tools to facilitate 279 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,839 that. Now there are. So um those tools 280 00:09:51,839 --> 00:09:54,320 that will organize the experience and 281 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:56,000 and ensure that it's actually 282 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,000 productive. Um because in a 283 00:09:58,000 --> 00:09:59,920 standardsbased environment, one of the 284 00:09:59,920 --> 00:10:01,440 things that people are afraid of and 285 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:03,600 rightfully so is you can't just have 286 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:05,120 chaos and people can't just be doing 287 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,120 anything they want. And so now we have 288 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,279 the tools to organize it so it can still 289 00:10:09,279 --> 00:10:13,600 be standardsbased but also aligned to um 290 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,000 those individual interests, aptitudes, 291 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,480 etc. And folks can individual learners 292 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,120 even as young as prek and kinder we've 293 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:22,640 seen this happening where they can 294 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:23,839 actually take control of their own 295 00:10:23,839 --> 00:10:26,320 learning. Fascinating to hear these 296 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,120 students be able to articulate 297 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:31,040 um what they're doing, why they're doing 298 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,120 it, and how they're doing it. and every 299 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:35,920 learner mastering standards but in in 300 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:38,720 different ways. Um being collaborative, 301 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:40,160 not just sitting on a computer because 302 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:42,160 we do have adaptive software but we all 303 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:44,800 have learned very clearly that it's not 304 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:46,399 just sitting on a computer and letting 305 00:10:46,399 --> 00:10:47,839 the computer tell you what to do instead 306 00:10:47,839 --> 00:10:49,519 of the teacher tell you what to do that 307 00:10:49,519 --> 00:10:51,600 it's actually being able to have agency 308 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:53,680 over that entire experience. So very 309 00:10:53,680 --> 00:10:55,200 exciting 310 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:57,680 um fascinating to see in action what 311 00:10:57,680 --> 00:10:59,440 every educator has dreamed about from 312 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:00,880 the time that they you know got into 313 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:02,880 education was to be able to see a 314 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:04,880 classroom where every learner's engaged 315 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:07,600 doing things that they are enjoying but 316 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,160 also benefiting from um being pushed in 317 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:12,480 that you know zone of proximal challenge 318 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:14,880 that they need um all of those things 319 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,440 happening um and the teacher being a 320 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:19,120 great coach and facilitator of that 321 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:21,040 experience but it being you know 322 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:22,560 different things at different times I 323 00:11:22,560 --> 00:11:24,000 that that's that's the key. That's what 324 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:25,279 we've been trying to work towards all 325 00:11:25,279 --> 00:11:27,279 these years and and it's to me the most 326 00:11:27,279 --> 00:11:28,640 exciting time in education because we 327 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:30,320 have the tools available today to make 328 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:32,560 that happen. Well, you you answered that 329 00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:34,880 with so much vigor and and enthusiasm 330 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:36,320 and obviously you're passionate about 331 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,320 this. It it's interesting because my 332 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:39,600 next question was what would be the 333 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:41,680 predictable positive outcomes and I 334 00:11:41,680 --> 00:11:43,920 think you leaned into those pretty well 335 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:46,240 u with with your answer but uh I guess I 336 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,040 would ask then understanding those kind 337 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:51,519 of positive things that we can be 338 00:11:51,519 --> 00:11:52,959 passionate about in the classroom that 339 00:11:52,959 --> 00:11:55,920 can really uh you know push into the 340 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,240 students uniqueness. What are some of 341 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,800 those uh potential barriers to this work 342 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:02,320 that you have seen? And I know you've 343 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:04,160 been working with districts and this is 344 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:06,000 relatively new work, but you've been 345 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:07,120 working with districts to try to do 346 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:08,480 this. What what have been those 347 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:09,760 implementation barriers you have seen 348 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:10,800 that you would want to make sure 349 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:12,639 districts were aware of as they went 350 00:12:12,639 --> 00:12:15,040 down this pathway? 351 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:17,920 Well, I think and again um like you 352 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:19,200 mentioned even as an assistant 353 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:20,639 superintendent, this was a focus of 354 00:12:20,639 --> 00:12:23,680 mine. Um you know, we created a a a 355 00:12:23,680 --> 00:12:25,200 separate campus, you know, and I think 356 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:26,720 sometimes this is how it starts. people 357 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:28,639 go like, well, this classroom or this 358 00:12:28,639 --> 00:12:31,279 campus or this program um when this is 359 00:12:31,279 --> 00:12:33,279 really right for every learner and so 360 00:12:33,279 --> 00:12:36,480 scaling this as a system has been really 361 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:38,480 the impetus of the work that we've tried 362 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,600 to do um and been really successful with 363 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:43,360 by putting systems in place for you know 364 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:45,120 to scale it across a district. So it's 365 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:46,800 not just you know every learner really 366 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,519 deserves this type of experience. So I 367 00:12:49,519 --> 00:12:51,519 think the barriers are implementation 368 00:12:51,519 --> 00:12:54,240 right um changing practice and so there 369 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:56,320 there are system level changes that have 370 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,839 to take place in terms of always culture 371 00:12:59,839 --> 00:13:02,399 and mindset but then also how do you 372 00:13:02,399 --> 00:13:04,639 serve up curriculum you know um that's 373 00:13:04,639 --> 00:13:06,880 one of them you know you can't um have 374 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,839 scripted curriculum and expect this to 375 00:13:09,839 --> 00:13:11,200 work right I mean those two things are 376 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,079 in conflict um how do you do assessments 377 00:13:14,079 --> 00:13:15,920 how do you do your interim assessments 378 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:17,120 you know how do and you have to have 379 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:18,399 data and feedback 380 00:13:18,399 --> 00:13:19,839 um to be able to make sure that you're 381 00:13:19,839 --> 00:13:20,959 making progress, people are held 382 00:13:20,959 --> 00:13:22,560 accountable for the standards, the 383 00:13:22,560 --> 00:13:24,399 learners are too. So, that's important. 384 00:13:24,399 --> 00:13:25,920 But how do you do that in this type of 385 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:27,680 system? Um and there are answers to all 386 00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:30,160 of those questions. Um and then of 387 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:32,800 course, how do you support individual 388 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,200 teachers as they transform their 389 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,560 classroom practice essentially um and 390 00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:40,079 support the competencies that they need 391 00:13:40,079 --> 00:13:44,000 to move from um delivery of instruction 392 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,079 to facilitation of learning. And that's 393 00:13:46,079 --> 00:13:47,279 a you know those are two different 394 00:13:47,279 --> 00:13:50,880 things. Um and the the beautiful thing 395 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:52,800 is those those are barriers but you they 396 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:54,480 really need individualized support. And 397 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,360 it it is not just um analyzing student 398 00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:58,959 data that will get you there. It's 399 00:13:58,959 --> 00:14:01,199 actually literally instructional 400 00:14:01,199 --> 00:14:02,560 strategies but they're different 401 00:14:02,560 --> 00:14:04,160 strategies than what you use for a whole 402 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:08,480 group. And so um the the exciting thing 403 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:10,720 is that teachers as they move towards 404 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:11,920 that and they start to see the outcomes 405 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:13,839 for learners that is the reason why they 406 00:14:13,839 --> 00:14:15,519 got into education in the first place 407 00:14:15,519 --> 00:14:17,440 they get very encouraged in in that 408 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:18,880 practice if they're supported along the 409 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:20,399 way. Yeah. And I think with the use of 410 00:14:20,399 --> 00:14:21,920 adaptive technology, you talked about 411 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,639 that earlier and and these mind shift 412 00:14:24,639 --> 00:14:26,800 changes and and putting the teacher in 413 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,360 that position of facilitator or coach, I 414 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:30,959 think it actually makes the job of being 415 00:14:30,959 --> 00:14:33,120 an educator that much more invigorating, 416 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:35,920 that much more rewarding. Um, and uh 417 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,040 they become less about assessment and uh 418 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,040 instructors and more about educators. 419 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,519 And so for me, that's really exciting. 420 00:14:43,519 --> 00:14:45,760 Um, now you've worked with a number of 421 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:48,800 districts on this. Um, is there a story 422 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:50,240 you'd like to share about a district or 423 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,120 a school that's really done this? Well, 424 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:55,920 wow, there are so many, Dave. Um, you 425 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:57,760 know, we toured some together where I 426 00:14:57,760 --> 00:14:59,440 remember you saying something about, 427 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:01,519 wow, the collaborative hum, right, in 428 00:15:01,519 --> 00:15:02,959 this building, you know, just, uh, 429 00:15:02,959 --> 00:15:04,959 seeing the culture shifts and the 430 00:15:04,959 --> 00:15:07,519 transformations. Um, we should we we'll 431 00:15:07,519 --> 00:15:09,360 list we'll let's put a list on the learn 432 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:11,360 website because I I don't want to really 433 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,000 call out one without being able to show 434 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:16,399 um uh all of them because there are so 435 00:15:16,399 --> 00:15:18,800 many you know and and by the way the 436 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:20,240 thing that I love about what we've seen 437 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:22,720 with this is small districts very small 438 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,199 districts um you know 500 student well 439 00:15:25,199 --> 00:15:27,360 we have one district that's 22 was 22 440 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,320 kids when we started um and so small 441 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,639 districts to very large urban districts 442 00:15:32,639 --> 00:15:34,079 suburban mid- urban everything in 443 00:15:34,079 --> 00:15:36,079 between the size of the district is not 444 00:15:36,079 --> 00:15:39,279 a barrier in this. Um, and the beautiful 445 00:15:39,279 --> 00:15:41,199 thing is, you know, Dan Pink said, if 446 00:15:41,199 --> 00:15:42,880 it's if it can't be automated, it will 447 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,680 be. This is the kind of role that cannot 448 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:47,279 be automated for teachers. When you're 449 00:15:47,279 --> 00:15:49,199 in this role, it cannot be automated. 450 00:15:49,199 --> 00:15:52,079 Um, but it can be scaled. And so, um, 451 00:15:52,079 --> 00:15:53,680 it's very exciting that we're in this 452 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:55,279 time in education that we can be part of 453 00:15:55,279 --> 00:15:57,519 that. And so, with that in mind, if 454 00:15:57,519 --> 00:15:59,120 there is a district or partner who's 455 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:00,480 interested in exploring this work more 456 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,480 deeply with you, how would they go about 457 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:03,920 contacting you, arranging for those 458 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:05,440 conversations? 459 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:08,079 Well, our website engaged tolearn.org. 460 00:16:08,079 --> 00:16:11,360 In fact, we put a lot of free resources 461 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,440 around this up on the website um during 462 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:15,199 the pandemic to help people think about 463 00:16:15,199 --> 00:16:17,040 it from that perspective and not just um 464 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:19,519 you know, put kids on a computer. Um and 465 00:16:19,519 --> 00:16:21,519 then of course um my LinkedIn and 466 00:16:21,519 --> 00:16:25,600 Twitter um Shannon K. Burke and um 467 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:26,880 people can reach out to me directly. 468 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,759 Shannon atengagedtolearn.org 469 00:16:29,759 --> 00:16:31,759 in the book connect the dots that I 470 00:16:31,759 --> 00:16:34,639 published uh recently or in July. Um 471 00:16:34,639 --> 00:16:36,079 there's a whole there's a section on 472 00:16:36,079 --> 00:16:38,399 this and so there's um some information 473 00:16:38,399 --> 00:16:40,079 that way too. Wonderful. Well, thank you 474 00:16:40,079 --> 00:16:41,440 Shannon and thank you for being a part 475 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:42,880 of the important work of supporting our 476 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:44,560 students in schools and thank you for 477 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,199 your participation in a learn podcast. 478 00:16:47,199 --> 00:16:50,920 Thanks for what you're doing.