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I want to welcome our audience to this
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learned podcast it is in these podcasts
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that learn wants you to meet experts who
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can help you in your work as school
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leaders or perhaps help Partners in the
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education landscape
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the topic for this podcast is dignity
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and belonging and our guests are authors
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Floyd Cobb and John Crown Apple
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on the learn website you will find on
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the research page under the Coe of
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access and the element of dignity and
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belonging research in this area being
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discussed along with potential resources
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to access
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Floyd and John I want to welcome you to
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the learn podcast it's good to have you
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here to speak with us about this
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important topic
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I know you have extensive research and
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work background in the area of dignity
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and belonging and so if you would would
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you please share with the audience some
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of that background and experience and
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we'll go ahead and start with you Floyd
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good morning and and thank you for for
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having us uh yes John and I have both
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work in education in various ways with a
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better part of 20 years for me classroom
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teacher uh building administrator School
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District
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administrator and as well as an advent
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faculty member and try to apply all of
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those experiences together to be able to
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reflect black on lessons that we've
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learned related to
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implementation related to
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improving outcomes for all students and
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throughout our work and throughout a
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reflection kind of where that led us to
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was thinking about some very simple
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ideas uh related to the importance of
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dignity and belonging itself
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wonderful and John
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sure I've um I've been in education
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since 1996
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particularly started as a classroom
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teacher and since 2004
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my day-to-day career responsibilities
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were responsible for I was responsible
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for organizational development with a
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focus
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originally it was it was called cultural
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competence and cultural proficiency then
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it shifted you know as as language tends
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to do to what nowadays is called
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diversity equity and inclusion and I was
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in that role for about 15 years now the
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latter or the mid part of the past
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decade is when
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Floyd and I started talking about
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perhaps you know approaching the work of
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of improving outcomes for for all
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students in in a slightly different way
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which led us to you know on a journey of
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exploration
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which led us to you know this present
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moment that we're in focusing on
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ensuring accountability around some very
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simple ideas that end up being
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remarkably complex which are belonging
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and dignity wonderful I'm excited to
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have you here today to talk about this
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subject matter and I know you guys have
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a great deal of experience in it and I'm
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going to go ahead and start with you
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Floyd and just recognizing that in the
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amount of time we have dedicated this
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podcast we cannot cover all the research
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around dignity and belonging I'd like
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for you to share though with our
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audience those key insights and
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information about the research that's
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out there that you think is important
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for them to hear
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sure so uh the arrival at this
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particular concept actually kind of was
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occurred in the reverse I spent a lot of
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time kind of thinking about really the
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importance and the power of humiliation
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and the effect that it actually had on
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people and and how humiliation
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um
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related directly uh to the experience
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that people had when they were feeling
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some form of discrimination and so what
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that led me to was just asking this very
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simple question that if this is what
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people don't want to feel what is it the
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thing that people do want to feel and
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what that led to was
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um a journey of exploration uh related
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to dignity and you know the the book
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that I had
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arrived at first uh it was one written
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by Donna Hicks who had spent her entire
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career really focused on uh this idea
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and concept and as I started to dig into
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it I I realized that
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um through so much of the work that I
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had been engaged in related to
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improving outcomes for students that I I
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it was a it was a word that was always
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there but a word that wasn't fully
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explored and so in all the articles that
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I had read I could go back and I could
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find the usage of this particular term
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and or phrase and as we want to about
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our particular work we realized that
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there was this intersection
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not only between
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um this very fundamental and important
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um need and desire to be treated with
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dignity but also uh to to be treated as
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if we belong and so this combination uh
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certain neighborhood of Donna Hicks and
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John Powell uh to be able to get a full
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understanding of the thing that we
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desired helped kind of create this
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broader frame around uh the things that
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we actually need to be working towards
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as opposed to constantly uh thinking
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about things that we're trying to avoid
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and and
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um that then kind of started this
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particular
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project and this framework and became
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very critical and foundational elements
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to be able to provide opportunities for
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folks to be able to
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speak and talk about this in much more
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concrete ways
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and so Donna Hicks what what was her
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background specifically that that caused
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her to kind of framework this way yeah
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so her background was actually in
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um more in conflict resolution kind of
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uh International conflict resolution
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itself uh she uh as a professor at
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Harvard
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um over the years has become
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um a very valued uh colleague and very
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valued resource for us to be able to
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balance ideas off of but
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um so much of the work that she was
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engaging was trying to understand how
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International conflict
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um was the result in some way shape or
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form of a violation of one's dignity and
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when you think about you know human
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beings in humanity
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a lot of times we will get caught up in
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the form or fashion in which we will
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attempt to humiliate or denigrate or
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violate someone's dignity as opposed to
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Simply focusing on the ACT in and of
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itself and so she had been engaged in
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work
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um you know working very closely with
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with Bishop Desmond Tutu while he was
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still alive uh in terms of helping her
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with her General understanding of what
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this was and you know she's dedicated to
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her entire life to this particular
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process has very simple steps in terms
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of essential elements of how we honor
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dignity and and certainly how we violate
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it and she's been uh the work has been
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very important to be able to support
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this as it builds off sort of the
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broader dignity noise and studies that
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exist
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well I I think it's amazing how you've
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taken that work that she has done and
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created an application for students in
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schools and it's a good segue to the
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next question John which is in your
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experience if a district wanted to
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engage in this work what are some of
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those opportunities or really positive
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outcomes that they would want to make
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certain their internal and external
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communities were made aware of right out
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of the gate
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so there's a few things that come to
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mind immediately one is that this
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particular effort you know of belonging
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and dignity is very Central to
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everything that's done it's not
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something that's special or a side dish
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it's something that is essential in
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terms of leadership all the way down to
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you know uh essential pedagogy in terms
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of helping ensure that students
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um have the opportunity to have the best
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opportunity possible to learn
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um so so that's one making sure that
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it's Central uh the second thing is that
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it's Community Based uh meaning that um
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this is something that is done with the
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community
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um and that actually is a Common Thread
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um throughout implementation efforts
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within you know the entire Community
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which is we do things with people not to
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people not for people uh and and by that
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you know in terms of the opportunities
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um right out of the gate as you phrased
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it uh would be for the entire community
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to see that the effort really is about
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ensuring accountability
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for what each person in the community
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truly wants
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um and needs in order to feel like they
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belong in order to feel like they are
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being treated as a person of value and
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worth and another way to to think about
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that is building accountability around
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ensuring that people feel appreciated
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that people feel validated people feel
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accepted and that people feel treated
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fairly
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and that's Universal that's powerful
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because that that's for every child not
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just some children
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and I think that is a great opportunity
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for superintendents as they lead this
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kind of work if they're interested in
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this kind of work but even as you do
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that relying upon your experience you
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know there are some implementation
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barriers that one must be aware of and
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so what would some of those be and how
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would you advise people to prepare for
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those things
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well um connecting it to what I was just
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saying I think it's important to know
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that the effort is truly also about
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um helping people find Common Ground uh
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and just making that very explicit that
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we may have all kinds of differences you
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know in ideology as well as other things
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and the role of a public institution in
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schools in particular as we're talking
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about now
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is to serve the community and that is
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everyone in the community so there has
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to be some common ground that we can
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find and agree on in terms of how we're
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going to treat one another and and so
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um uh one one of the barriers would be
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kind of missing that Mark that this
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really is about bridging not about you
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know fighting or winning or going into
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battle or you know resisting it really
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is about bridging which can be you know
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extraordinarily hard especially in our
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you know in our current you know um uh
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time when things groups seem to be so
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splintered boards seem to be so
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splintered uh that this ends up uh being
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something that sounds simple but ends up
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being complex in in terms of doing a
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couple of other things that that may end
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up serving as barriers that that come to
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mind would be when you know when we talk
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using abstract language
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um or talking euphemisms which nowadays
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it's very common for efforts uh to
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improve student outcomes and better
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serve the community to be framed in this
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language
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um that's often referred to as you know
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educational Equity
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um and you know there's all types of use
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of euphemisms and abstract language kind
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of connected with with that endeavor so
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one of one of the barriers would be to
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get being stuck in in that language
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um as opposed to finding simple
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accessible language to represent you
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know what it is that we're we're trying
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to do another barrier uh or way that
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that you know leaders could end up
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missing the mark
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is by not framing it uh the effort in a
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way where everyone can see how they're
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going to benefit
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right
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um in in we Floyd and I you know uh
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really
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um reinforced this point and make sure
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that you know we don't gloss over it is
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that
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everyone in the community has to see
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that they're going to receive some sort
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of benefit from the effort that doesn't
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mean everyone's going to pen and fit in
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the same way or the same degree but any
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improvements that we're making with you
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know with public funds and and and you
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know being stewards of the community has
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to benefit the community right so so
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that would be another uh um you know
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missing that point would be creating an
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another unnecessary uh barrier and then
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you know there's a number of other
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barriers but one other one that I think
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is worth highlighting right now is uh
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making sure to avoid binary thinking
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which which is thinking that frames you
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know choices as this or that
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um and one that comes to mind for me you
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know immediately is how common it is for
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people to frame equity and equality is
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two separate things
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um and if we're going down that road
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we're really uh possibly
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engaging in you know the escalation of
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confidence conflict because that's
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really a false binary ideas like that
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actually need to work together
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and one of the people along with Donna
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Hicks and John Powell who have really
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influenced our thinking as Amanda Ripley
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she wrote a book called high conflict
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and one of the uh you know one of the
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warnings that that she has is is to
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avoid avoid the binary if you find
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yourself in a this or that type of
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thinking back up get some distance from
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it and try to break down that binary
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because
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um uh that's that's probably a warning
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that we're heading into some type of
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unnecessary conflict that is really good
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advice thank you for sharing that now
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you guys have done this work for for
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quite a bit and you've engaged in a lot
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of districts Floyd what it's a a story
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that you'd like to share about how it
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has impacted students or schools as
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you've engaged with different districts
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across the country yeah I mean I I there
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have been a number of different ones
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that that stand out
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um and it's and it's always amazing
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um to be able to see and to be able to
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look at because
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the approach that we have tried to take
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is basically just to Simply give advice
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um at its at its foremost because we're
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we've come to understand is that
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as
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guys who have kind of done some work and
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have an idea
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the the legacy of the work has to be
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done and has to be implemented by the
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folks who live there every day and by
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the folks who are engaged with the
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community because it is a
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community-based solution and so you know
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there have been you know plenty of
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stories where you know we have
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um
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you know seen a significant work that's
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occurred just outside of St Louis John
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actually sent me a pic yesterday uh in
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terms of some work that has been done uh
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in grading Pennsylvania uh where they've
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been able to kind of make sense of these
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ideas
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um and take hold of them and bring them
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to their own uh certainly Mesquite Texas
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is perhaps one of the the best examples
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uh that we have seen simply in terms of
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of how the community itself has rallied
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around the idea and how there has been
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just a broader community plan in terms
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of of taking those ideas that John had
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talked about in terms of making sure
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that uh this is a broader communal
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benefit
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so that everybody can see themselves
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benefiting from this particular solution
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and realizing that at some point in time
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all of us no matter who we are have been
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ready to feel as if we didn't belong or
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were treated as if we
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did not inherently possess dignity and
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so when all of those things wind up
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being taken together in the district
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leaders wound up taking hold of this and
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leading it creates an opportunity to be
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able to move forward and I think
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what we've come to understand is that
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the language of digging and belonging
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provides a different access point
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um than perhaps some of the the other
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terms that are sometimes more commonly
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used within this generator
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yeah I I could not agree with you more
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it is absolutely absolutely amazing the
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power of uh belonging through through
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dignity and and I applaud you for this
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work I if a district or a partner we're
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interested in exploring this work with
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you guys how would they go about
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contacting you I think our website is
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probably the easiest there's a forum on
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there that that you know gets submitted
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and it goes to our email addresses so
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it's dignityconsulting.com
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um and our email addresses are are easy
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enough too it's just our first names in
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front of at dignityconsulting.com so
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either John at dignity consulting or
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Floyd dignity Consulting but going to
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the website you know is is pretty easy
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there's a contact us link
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um and this short little form to fill
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out so that's probably the best all
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right well thank you Floyd and John for
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being a part of this important work of
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supporting our students and schools and
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thank you for your participation in a
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learn podcast
